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Talk:Orochimaru
Revival...? I didin't understand very well that thing about "revival"...Orochimaru "injects" some part of his consciousness into the ones he bites with his juinjutsu and then that "piece of his mind" takes his form with the flesh of the host ?-- (talk) 23:20, July 13, 2012 (UTC) You know as much as we do ... likely Voldemort style--Elveonora (talk) 23:27, July 13, 2012 (UTC) just random question At least in the anime (I don't remember it in the manga) when Oro was about to suck Sasuke's neck to give him the Curse Mark, his face appeared all fucked up, any idea as of why?--Elveonora (talk) 21:46, July 19, 2012 (UTC) When he was still posing as Shiore and his face-mask was ruined?--'NinjaSheik' 21:55, July 19, 2012 (UTC) like this and this--Elveonora (talk) 22:04, July 19, 2012 (UTC) Hmm... I don't really remember the fight all too well, but wasn't those images just part of something Sasuke imagined. Or was it in one of his dreams? Don't remember.--'NinjaSheik' 22:08, July 19, 2012 (UTC) It appeared a second before Sasuke's neck got bitten by Oro--Elveonora (talk) 22:13, July 19, 2012 (UTC) Then it has to be his imagination in middle of fear, seeing as Oro as a real demon coming after him. Probably added in the anime for dramatic effect, if you ask me.--'NinjaSheik' 22:18, July 19, 2012 (UTC) It's exactly for that reason Sheik. The face seems modelled after an oni as well (I don't know if you guys follow Avatar) but a yokai that is said to steal the faces of people. Nothing more.--Cerez365™ (talk) 11:56, July 20, 2012 (UTC) Makes sense, thanks for answer.--Elveonora (talk) 14:57, July 20, 2012 (UTC) His height? Sorry, but why is orochimaru's height decreased? in part 1 it's 179,4 cm and in part 2 it's decreased to 172 cm? are you sure it's not wrong? it's really strange that someone's height is shortened... eh, sorry. the weight too? virgo dandela -- (talk) 12:56, August 5, 2012 (UTC) :They would've changed because he switched bodies at the end of part 1. TricksterKing (talk) 13:02, August 5, 2012 (UTC) The creepy chick body was taller that the guy body.--Elveonora (talk) 13:52, August 5, 2012 (UTC) sealed by totsuka... Some articles (Kusanagi Sword included) state that Orochimaru had been sealed by Itachi before being revived by Sasuke. That's incorrect, he had escaped such fate and got burnt by Amaterasu.--Elveonora (talk) 16:57, August 10, 2012 (UTC) :Which is speculation. We know he got stabbed by sealing sword. We don't know what the hell that snake was. It could be as you said, it could be foreshadowing that there was a way he could be brought back. We don't know anything about the snake. We do know what Itachi's sword can do.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 17:03, August 10, 2012 (UTC) ::When it comes to Orochimaru's life it's all up in the air. It is in fact true that we have no idea what those snakes would have gone on to do, but people speculate that he would have been revived through one of them which is not unbelievable, still, as it is now, he was sealed by the sword.--Cerez365™ (talk) 17:05, August 10, 2012 (UTC) Speculation is saying he got sealed, as later manga chapters and logic disprove such. There would be no reason to draw panels with snakes escaping and getting killed if it were just random/generic snakes/summons. It was obviously Orochimaru escaping the sealing, for further detail http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Elveonora#Re:_Kusanagi_-_Oro_edit and http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:TheUltimate3#Kusanagi_-_Oro_edit --Elveonora (talk) 17:13, August 10, 2012 (UTC) 1) Yes. 2) Speculation on my part, but it explains why he didn't need to use the Releasing Method to pop out of the seal. 3) Indeed. Because Sealed in permanent genjutsu = deader than dead. 4) And Orochimaru had his consciousness alive and well in Anko's seal. How else would he be aware of everything that Anko is aware of in respects to the war if he was chillin in dead world all this time? 5) And you know this how? 6) Kishimoto doesn't make many things obvious. It seems obvious to you because it helps reach a conclusion that makes sense to you. When you are forced to look at things objectively, you are left with more questions than answers, hence it's not certain * at least on something you agree with me * it was a different case, as Anko had Orochimaru's chakra/consciousness sealed in her, while Sasuke Orochimaru's soul, the latter broke free because Sasuke got short on chakra so there was nothing to hold Orochimaru back * again, there's only one soul and it's obviously walking around in a body thus was not sealed anywhere... proofs: # if it was possible for a soul to be hosted in 2 different bodies (Tobi-Madara originally thought) they wouldn't disprove the masked man being who is claiming to be automatically, thus it's not possible. # Anko was branded with Cursed Seal before Part I. and Orochimaru that came out of her knows everything that have happened so far, thus it's not like that one don't remember getting pwned by Sasuke and Itachi * His soul went into Anko's Cursed Seal likely after he got burnt * "Naruto, I will never meet Jiraiya sensei again as I will be molested by Orochimaru in a drunken dream world" "Naruto, I won't meet up with Minato because I'm not really your mother, just chakra" Naruto is stupid, those things were said to make him feel better and not sad * as since it's not obvious to you, that's why it's being discussed now --Elveonora (talk) 17:25, August 10, 2012 (UTC) Sorry for triple-post, but stating "seemingly" sealed fixes ALL the issues and it's a good compromise for both sides--Elveonora (talk) 17:29, August 10, 2012 (UTC) ::I do enjoy numbered responses. :::2) Different and the same. It's odd. Orochimaru is odd. :::3) Except we know Tobi was in fact lying about being Madara. :::4) Orochimaru is aware of Tobi's war. He was sealed before that war started. He said he knew what was going on because he could see it from Anko's seal. Not sure what you are getting at about him for whatever reason not remembering his defeat but /shrug. :::5) Or it was always there. See how this works yet? :::6) And this comes from...? :::7) It's not obvious. Like I said, you believe it's obvious because it reaches a conclusion you but together. There are many things it could have meant.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 17:36, August 10, 2012 (UTC) Orochimaru's consciousness did not "shift" his consciousness is within every single person that has received his cursed seal. You're using speculation to string your own conclusions together. Sasuke could have gone to any one of the cursed seal recipients and revived Orochimaru.--Cerez365™ (talk) 17:43, August 10, 2012 (UTC) *3) What I mean is that just as Edo Madara was revived, they found out that Tobi is not Madara. If it was possible for Tobi to be Madara as well like 1 soul 2 bodies, they wouldn't disprove it right away. *4) Yes. What I'm getting at is that his chakra/mind was put into Anko before Part I. but it appears he remember everything thus getting pwned and absorbed by Sasuke, Itachi fight etc. thus it's not like this one is pre-part II. Oro and all the knowledge of current events he has is just thanks to Anko *5) Sarutobi sealed a part of Oro's soul into Death guy and his arms rotted, thus it doesn't appear like it's exactly Voldemort style, thus putting a part of his soul into many cursed seals, just chakra and we know his is conscious. *6) common sense and from what Kishi has established, the "Kushina" in Naruto was a chakra thus her soul being long in the pure world, while I don't think Itachi's Sword and afterlife share the same space *7) we can argue for days, or make some compromises like "presumably, seemingly, it appears, likely" not stating something as 100% confirmed and clear while it's not--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, August 10, 2012 (UTC) *8) @Cerez, only if Orochimaru's soul was available, you think there can be 10 Orochimarus walking around??? ...--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, August 10, 2012 (UTC) ::3)But Tobi was not Madara. The entire thing was to show that he was in fact lying. I'm no longer sure how this even relates anymore. ::4)Do note that anything Naruto's shadow clones learn or kno get's transferred to his original body. It is possible for knowledge to remain within the consciousness, no matter how divided it ends up. ::5)Which helps prove my argument so I'm not sure where you are going with this. ::6)And this again helps prove my point. Kushina remained in Naruto because part of her conciousness was within Naruto's seal, just as Orochimaru remained in his Cursed Seals. ::7)But what I'm getting at is there is no presumably. We know how the sword works. We don't know how that snake works.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 18:02, August 10, 2012 (UTC) * proved it's not possible to be in 2 different bodies at the same time, thus there can be only 1 soul in 1 body because some thought Tobi to be half Madara's soul, indicating that since Orochimaru's soul got sucked as you say by Totsuka then there shouldn't be one walking around. That's because his soul didn't get sealed. * it's different as stuff transfer from shadow clones to original after being dispelled, in Orochimaru's case that would mean part of Oro watching from Anko since from years ago and some other part getting sucked by Itachi, this isn't Harry Potter where all souls of Voldemort were connected, unless Kishi confirms so. * if Oro had separated and put part of his soul into others before, he would be long rotted * yes, the difference being that Orochimaru's soul as well stayed around, not just consciousness * we know how the sword works, but you can't say for sure Orochimaru's soul got sucked by it, while there obviously were the snakes around * you guys are basically saying, that as long as Sasuke has Orochimaru's DNA and finds any cursed seal hosts, he can unseal as many Orochimarus as he want "herp derp" --Elveonora (talk) 18:13, August 10, 2012 (UTC) :1)So you're going to use what people speculated outside of universe to what we we were told inside of universe? It doesn't work that way. The entire Madara/Tobi thing about what the hell he was is on a completely different level than this. We know Orochimaru had his consciousness in his seals. We have no idea what is up with Tobi and trying to link the former with fan speculations of the later will ruin your argument. :2) I'm starting to notice a very big break between our viewpoints and why this keeps going around and around. You keep pointing out souls. I keep pointing out consciousness. :3) Pardon? I think this is linked to the misconception of the whole "soul vs consciousness" thing. :4) Now I'm sure there is a break in viewpoints. :5) That's exactly what it means. And it makes logical sense. Orochimaru's entire goal was the not die. By making it so that in the event that he does exactly that, his cursed seals will act as soul jars to keep him moving. It of course has one noticeable flaw, it requires someone else to keep bringing him back and if for whatever reason you don't want to do so, he's kinda boned. ::Now getting of the numbered responses, lets take a moment to address this break. You are under the impression that his soul would be sealed in the genjutsu which would make him beyond the means of revival through the Unsealing Method because his soul wouldn't be in the Pure World correct? This assumes a lot of things, one of them being the nature of the genjutsu. According to Nagato when he got sealed, the genjutsu is the afterlife. Which would mean if Orochimaru was in fact, sealed there, he was killed. But we saw Orochimaru come back, and we know it was because his chakra, and parts of his consciousness was within the seals, and when used correctly, allowed him to return, as we've seen. You bring up the white snake as proof that he wasn't sealed. You claim it was to show that he escaped. However, as I've said, I don't see it as such. I see it as foreshadowing that Orochimaru could avoid permanent death on that field and now we know he has.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 19:14, August 10, 2012 (UTC) * I'm not sure what you are on about, it isn't proved that a soul can be separated and put into multiple bodies in Naruto-verse, if it was possible, Tobi could be Madara but they automatically disproved as such after the sight of the Edo-ed real one. * I guess so, consciousness = mind not soul. * Neither Pure or Impure worlds, genjutsu dream of drunken dreams inside of a sword jar I consider a separate space from both. * Again, that's not what Nagato said. It was simply to make Naruto think he goes to same place as Jiraiya * Wait, wait ... I say his body got sealed but soul not as he switched to the snakes. * There's flaw in your logic: You say there can be an infinite number of Orochimarus around... not it's just dumb and unlikely, but also since you say Totsuka Sword = Afterlife/Pure World, then that would mean an other Orochimaru can be brought back by Edo Tensei and there would be 2 walking around --Elveonora (talk) 19:46, August 10, 2012 (UTC) :1) I'm still not seeing how this is linked to our argument, especially with an enigma like Tobi. :2) And what does that have to do with Orochimaru? :3 and 4) And how do you know that is what Nagato was trying to do? How do you know he wasn't in fact going to where Jiraiya is. :5) And this is where our break comes in. You say Orochimaru's soul escaped sealing. I say nothing escaped sealing and he was done in. You believe his soul somehow flew from the dead snake into Anko's seal. I'm saying nothing of the sort happened and Orochimaru's consciousness was always in the seal :6) The supposed flaw in my argument suggests the idea his soul being split. I make no such assumptions. I say Orochimaru was sealed Itachi, which basically equated to him being killed. Because his chakra/consciousness was safely tucked away in his last cursed seal, he escaped permanent death. Also, we don't know if that exact thing CAN happen. It's completely in the realm of possibility because we simply don't know. ::And with that I suggest we stop this back and forth and let others come in. Because clearly there is a break that neither of us are going to get through discussing it amongst ourselves. This will be my last comment on the matter until more chime in.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 20:24, August 10, 2012 (UTC) * without soul and a physical form, there's no mind/consciousness * I don't want to offend you... but you should read twice. Are you saying that the "heavens/underworld/pure world/other life/whatever" are inside Totsuka's jar? * Orochimaru's chakra was always in the seal, the snakes that got burnt were obviously him because Kishimoto wouldn't bother drawing that. The way I see it, he was killed by Amaterasu but his soul stayed in the "impure world" due to his chakra still being bound to a physical form- Anko. * again, if chakra/dna/consciousness were enough to make a person, Kabuto was/would had become Orochimaru Right, I'd like an opinion of others as well --Elveonora (talk) 22:39, August 10, 2012 (UTC) Right, I believe Orochimaru is the most annoying character when it comes on to life and death. Nevertheless, he was sealed by the Totsuka Sword, that is what we know. Those snakes irregardless of what they would have done cannot be taken into account because we do not know for certain what would have happened if they had escaped even if it might be plain as day to you. I keep telling you that we have to record what we see, not what we speculate about. It's fine and whatnot to have in his article that the two snakes ran off and got killed nonetheless but we cannot say "Orochimaru got sealed by the Totsuka Sword but right before two snakes flew off and that was obviously him but they got killed and that's how he died" technically it would be incorrect to even mention his soul "shifting" to Anko's seal '~'. If there was an official source that said yes Oro would have been reborn from those snakes that would be fine but we cannot perpetrate that on the wiki. As for the rest of the discussion I won't bother elaborating on that because * I'm not a fan of people talking about where souls go when they die in a specific way because it's simply irrelevant. * I'd also like you to remember that Orochimaru's cells were in fact taking over Kabuto but he took control of them with (assuming) willpower. * The same thing is painfully obvious every time someone uses Hashirama's cells and his face starts popping out of their body. I believe the Hashirama's Living Clone is also a prime example of this, sans a consciousness. Danzo had to heavily seal the arm and constantly worry about using Wood Release when he did. If that's not apparent to you then this discussion is going nowhere.--Cerez365™ (talk) 10:21, August 11, 2012 (UTC) * What are you guys talking about??? I'm not even discussing what those snakes would have done, I'm saying it was obviously Orochimaru that had escaped the sealing but got killed by Amaterasu, I'm not even speculating on that, like you do. The point being, Orochimaru wasn't sucked in, not what would he have done if it wasn't for the snakes dying. * Orochimaru wouldn't had been reborn from the snakes because he didn't die from the "sealing" the snakes were something like a Body Replacement Technique or Gathering of the Snakes the only thing that got sucked in was his body. * Kabuto wouldn't have become Orochimaru if the DNA took over. Just Kabuto with mind and appearance of him. * Exactly, without a soul there's no consciousness * Danzo wouldn't have turned turned into Hashirama, just into a tree as his arm did.--Elveonora (talk) 14:43, August 11, 2012 (UTC) :Not doing a full response, because I still hunger for more opinions, but do want to point out; :: :this quote is the speculation. You assume to know what the snake is doing, that orochimaru survied, ect. Me and Cerez are saying, we don't know if any of that is true. What we all do know is that the sword seals the one that gets stabbed by it.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 15:20, August 11, 2012 (UTC) So they were there for nothing, good to know... there are things like reading comprehension and insight. Those snakes can do nothing because they are dead, so that's not even part of the problem. I'm saying those snakes were him because there's no point in showing: * random snakes escaping * getting killed You see it: Oro was sealed but "likely/presumably" one could have revived him with the snakes but we don't list speculations, I see it: "he was the snakes" that's the problem between us, not to mention the whole soul vs consciousness thing--Elveonora (talk) 16:03, August 11, 2012 (UTC) :I feel like this is the Tobi issue all over again... Nobody said they were there for no reason. But you are not Masashi Kishimoto, therefore you cannot assume what purpose they would have served and have it represented here as fact. Yes the snakes detached themselves, suppose they were going off to live a happy life in a hole somewhere? or else tell his grandmother that he wouldn't be home? I'm sure you haven't seen us deny that Orochimaru would have been reborn from those snakes but we simply cannot state it as fact. Yes there are things such as "reading comprehension and insight"- I don't know why you believe you have more than the rest of us- but there is also knowing your own limitations as a reader of the manga and a wikipedia editor. Bottom line is we cannot take those snakes into account because there are a million different things they could have ended up doing.--Cerez365™ (talk) 17:51, August 11, 2012 (UTC) Neither one can assume and state it as a fact that Orochimaru got sealed when now he is walking around, making explanations that suit your own interpretations. I'm basing that solely on that one can't exist without a soul, a part of his soul cut (arms) caused him to rot, thus stating he put part of it to every cursed seal host contradicts that, while it was stated in manga to be just chakra. He appears to remember all the events (not talking about the knowledge of the war, like using Sasuke and all), making up that it's all connected Voldemort style is just pure speculation. What I offer is the most logical and in-canon explainable option--Elveonora (talk) 19:58, August 11, 2012 (UTC) :If that's the case than technically, me and Cerez "win". You say you based on the fact that a soul can't be in two places at once, and yet Mu has the ability to split himself into two or more parts. They succeeded in sealing Mu only for him to escape the sealing with ditching half his chakra in the seal.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 11:38, August 12, 2012 (UTC) We don't know how Mu's technique works. It appears that the debate is pointless, there was no reason to revert my edit in the first place.--Elveonora (talk) 21:12, August 12, 2012 (UTC) I don't understand what is happening... Firstly I think you need to understand that Orochimaru's "consciousness" and his "soul" are not the same things. Orochimaru specifically said he poured Senjutsu chakra into Anko's seal which his consciousness also inhabited. I don't understand why him undergoing necrosis, or Harry Potter has to do with this. What Sasuke did was give that consciousness that Oro left in Anko a form, work with what we get in the manga, not your own interpretations that "one cannot exist without a soul". Sometimes people over-analyse everything in the series too much which makes me wonder how they get any enjoyment out of it.--Cerez365™ (talk) 09:59, August 13, 2012 (UTC) :Indeed, this argument is getting circular, so let's get down to business. I'm for removing the "seemingly" at the point where he got sealed, because all evidence points to him being sealed.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 10:06, August 13, 2012 (UTC) ::I agree. I just wanted the intro to be more up-to-date with whats happened with him.--Cerez365™ (talk) 10:10, August 13, 2012 (UTC) LOL, whatever... list false and unconfirmed information, I don't care.--Elveonora (talk) 15:39, August 13, 2012 (UTC) :Unless you help Masashi write the manga and can tell us explicitly what those snakes would have gone on and done, I think we have our bases covered.--Cerez365™ (talk) 15:47, August 13, 2012 (UTC) Talk about bias and ignorance... first, there was not a single reason to revert my edit on the Kusanagi page, nor there is to remove "seemingly" The page is about the sword, no reason to mention Orochimaru being sucked there. The latter is less speculative with seemingly, because he from my view, obviously wasn't sealed, but you think your shit smells better than mine.--Elveonora (talk) 15:55, August 13, 2012 (UTC) My dear friend Cerez, can you please explain how come this conversation did conclude? Explain to me why do we have to rip each other each time, what's bad about seemingly?--Elveonora (talk) 16:49, August 13, 2012 (UTC) Orochimaru's Defection Does anyone tell me Orochimaru defected from the village before or after Minato's dead ? thanks (talk) 17:40, August 10, 2012 (UTC)GOd :Most likely before. We dont have an exact timeframe of how long Minato was Hokage, but we do know Orochimaru got sloppy and caught after Hiruzen made Minato Hokage instead of him.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 17:53, August 10, 2012 (UTC) Calculate it, Oro was still a Konoha Ninja when he first met Kabuto, the latter was like 7-8 years old and now is 23. Thus shortly after Minato's death Oro was still in Konoha. Tobi attacked Konoha a year after the 3rd Shinobi World War had ended, thus was a Hokage for circa a year or less.--Elveonora (talk) 18:03, August 10, 2012 (UTC) It may have been closer to two years, since Kakashi was 12 during Kakashi Gaiden and 14 during the Nine-Tails attack.--BeyondRed (talk) 21:18, August 10, 2012 (UTC) He was 13--Elveonora (talk) 22:22, August 10, 2012 (UTC) He was 13 during the Kakashi Gaiden and 14 and 25 days during the Kyuubi attack, all can be calculated from their birthdates and ages, Oro left either right before the Kyuubi Attack or after the Kyuubi Attack. (talk) 02:06, September 6, 2012 (UTC) late reply, and read above. Oro met 9-10 years old Kabuto, thus at least 3 years after Kurama attack, Oro was still a Konoha shinobi--Elveonora (talk) 02:10, September 6, 2012 (UTC) Orochimaru Fire Element Hey everyone. So I was watching Naruto Episode 29. In this episode Orochimaru is fighting Naruto and he uses what appears to be a Fire Element: Grand Fireball Technique. I'm not really sure who edits this bio page, but I wanted to help out. Please watch the video ('- -no links ಠ_ಠ- -') and go to 14:15. :What you saw was him igniting his Wind Release: Great Breakthrough technique.--Cerez365™ (talk) 20:43, September 24, 2012 (UTC) Oh I see now. Thanks for the info! Reaper Death Seal Suigetsu seems to be under the impression the only reason Sasuke beat Orochimaru was because he was still handicapped by the Reaper Death Seal, but I thought that swapping bodies at the end of Part 1 cured him. Clarification? (talk) 03:21, September 25, 2012 (UTC) :People are entitled to their beliefs. Orochimaru did switch bodies but it was severely weakened or possibly defective but by the time Sasuke decided to kill his master, Kabuto was preparing to give him level 10 medicine, it may be possible that this was due to the effects of the Shinigami taking his hands.--Cerez365™ (talk) 10:38, September 25, 2012 (UTC)